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User talk:AthrunFeya/Archive 9

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Archive This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.
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Current

If not me, then someone even dumber. --Chaos? -- 16:44, April 15, 2010 (UTC)

That is not possible my dear.--GWPirate 18:02, April 15, 2010 (UTC)
Ignoring all the random ass things I say, I like to think of myself as pretty intelligent. I'm narcissistic though, so hellyeah. --Chaos? -- 18:20, April 15, 2010 (UTC)
He said, ahahahahahaha --Chaos? -- 18:20, April 15, 2010 (UTC)

Physway rating

Just wanted to clear up the purpose of the SoS spammer because you were confused by it. It's a meatshield, basically. It's to aggro large mobs and re-distribute damage packets to lighten the ER's energy denial while not losing out on damage, as spirit damage is armour ignoring and quite nice. I thought I explained that on the page, however. You could say it's our way of manipulating the AI;)MinionSplinter Weapon.jpgExcluded 19:49, April 18, 2010 (UTC)

why not minions then, they do a much better job at meatshielding/soaking up damage (and can make it with death nova). - AthrunFeya Lau bfly.gif - 20:26, April 18, 2010 (UTC)
Because of how easily they die, how slow the player or hero is at keeping up pace with the rest of the team, doesn't seem efficient enough. A SoS can move spirits, they're more durable and can be healed easier.MinionSplinter Weapon.jpgExcluded 22:04, April 18, 2010 (UTC)
she isn't saying spirits suck she is saying that minion bombing is better. I agree with her...however I think the build is better then what she rated due to the fact that you don't really need Sos or minion boming. It is suppose to let crappy pug team actually work.---XTREME 00:29, April 19, 2010 (UTC)
I would like to add that spirits are -amazing- ballers. Set up spirits, run in, aggro, use Summon Spirits and you have a ball. That and they are passive energy managment for the ER's. Minions on the other hand are random and form a 'meat wall' instead of a ball. erfbind is of course also a plus.--DigitalMending.jpgFear 13:52, April 19, 2010 (UTC)
I'd argue that minions are good because they are a comparatively low level and tend to have less health than other targets, therefore a strong priority for monster AI, keeping damage off your players (not to mention there's more of them with quicker recharge). Balling shouldn't be an issue because you have very few skills that require balled foes to be effective (as you say, balling =/= c-space frenzy). Of course if you want to ball then do it properly - drop Death's Charge on a competent physical player and add in some splinter weapon... The problem I have with the SoS is it doesn't really do anything spectacular for the team, there's no amazing synergies or reason for it being there for areas where earthbind isnt strictly needed. If Earthbind was mainbarred and maintainable then it would at least be possible to say it exists for the purpose of extending KD duration from 2 to 3 seconds but the build article doesnt reflect this.
To be honest, the orders bar is what is keeping it out of Great. You have maximum 21 energy every 15 seconds (since you have 0 regen from maintaining SoH on 4 melee chars) assuming things actually die, this is meant to cover x3 OoV (15e), x1 Blood Bond (5e) and the only condition/hex removal in the party. Effectively this means needing to choose between OoV and removing conditions/hexes (you could argue that SoLS or AoS can be used but players are terrible at using the former and the latter is not reliable). ER orders would be better for this role: with infinite energy pool, OoP which is scaled by asuran scan (and therefore does more damage at 14 spec than OotV at 16 spec) and dark fury which offers a cover enchant (altho the adren is nice too). Migrate hex removal over to one of the infuse eles and bring the second copy of GDW over to the ER orders. Instead of maintaining SoH on everyone, one of the melee characters can just drop a ebsoh down. Started formulating ideas here User:AthrunFeya/Physway_cleanup, as i've said dozens of times, the build is not a bad idea in theory, it's just very poorly executed. - AthrunFeya Lau bfly.gif - 15:13, April 19, 2010 (UTC)
i actually prefer the cultists orders bot in the variants to the one suggested. has way better blue bar and can keep the soh's unlike the Er orders. But if you took er orders then you could throw the soh onto the sos earthbind rit, and give it more of a role in the team. and....yeah just noticed this isnt the talk page for the build :D oh well typed it out now! and its relevant to Lau's last post.>>Jayson<<< 22:48, April 19, 2010 (UTC)
Reality is that spirits get attacked over minions or at least just as much. But, unlike minions, spirits have crit imunity, 50% damage reduction and get a nice heal every 5 seconds making them by far a better wall. Minions are good for secondary wall but mainly for death nova bombing and extra damage from their attacks. Allowing a rit into that build means you get a very pug friendly characters that can be played by any class, a leecher. Which is great considering there are classes like mesmers that are not otherwise included in the build. :> --Iggy 's other account 09:07, April 20, 2010 (UTC)
Energy on the OoV bar is easy enough to manage. So long as the physicals are even half decent the large number of buffs means stuff dies. Soul Reaping triggers alone provide up to 27 energy every 15 seconds (3*(8+1)) on top of SoLS. I've run that OotV bar a lot and have never really found myself wishing for more energy and don't frequently have to use SoLS even when using the hex removal on recharge. Casting times are a much more annoying problem than energy costs. As for SoLS - it requires the smallest amount of ability to use; you simply look for anything being attacked by one of your physicals, select it and wait a second for his health to drop. Ether Renewal is complete overkill - you can't spec as highly into blood and all you gain is the ability to maintain SoH on the casters (not too useful or important). Using OoP+DF with Cultist's Fervor grants more damage then OoV with BuH and/or Asuran Scan at the cost of more health loss. Using Dark Fury grants an extra enchanment making it much more useful in areas with heavy and/or threatening enchantment removal (Chilblains, Mirror, etc...). OotV is tighter on energy but you wouldn't be running Dark Fury and it helps cover any pressure the physicals take (although the last point is less imporant since the change to Blood Bond). Xenomortis 12:35, April 20, 2010 (UTC)
So basically, the posted bar isnt the best. Cultist version is... - AthrunFeya Lau bfly.gif - 12:40, April 20, 2010 (UTC)
If damage is your only concern then strictly speaking; yes, but only if your physicals are carrying Asuran Scan or By Ural's Hammer. Even then, the difference in damage is fairly marginal but using CF makes the bar much easier to run and you don't need any further energy management even while keeping up 4 copies of SoH. CF+OoP+DF is clearly the winner when you have Warriors not using Endurance bars or when you need all the cover enchantments you can get but otherwise, it's only a small difference. Also consider that OoV heals the frontliners whenever they attack anything. ER Eles can provide a big spot heal with Infuse, but are much weaker against pressure - OoV and Blood Bond releive some of that. Xenomortis 13:13, April 20, 2010 (UTC)

There are two types of Minion Masters: Bombers and OoU. With the former, heroes are far more effective in using them and it is preferred not to use heroes in physway. That said, we do use MM bomber heroes sometimes and is a viable option in many areas. With the ladder, if the player can keep up his/her army, it will deal significantly more damage than SoS and vampiric horrors can provide decent meat shields. Problem is that it's easier to find an SoS player (I've seen 1-2 Necros in the past year who could run OoU and both did it poorly) and spirits tend to be more reliable (not reliant on corpses, can control their placement, simple to play).

About Earthbind, it is good in areas with smaller mob sizes like UW. In other areas it makes killing bosses fool-proof.

About the Orders builds, I never played it but maybe we can ask some of the experienced necros who play with us often (I don't recall hearing Xenomortis complain about energy on that build). However, I once posted an OotV build (via guru) with more e-management (angorodon's gaze + ff), and people were telling me that it was overkill.--Arrogant Bastard 23:32, April 19, 2010 (UTC)

There it was overkill. Here you're maintaining x4 SoH and have no nothing but 21e/15secs, so its necessary. - AthrunFeya Lau bfly.gif - 11:47, April 20, 2010 (UTC)

The initial discussion from Guru If anyone wishes to discuss in a less biased fashion. MinionSplinter Weapon.jpgExcluded 00:47, April 26, 2010 (UTC)

"less biased"? Really? Half of the thread is you guys doing the same thing that happened here (bandwaggoning) and anti-PvX'ing when things went south here. I honestly haven't seen any great feedback in that thread. Just being honest. Karate KJ for sig.png Jesus 01:52, 26 April 2010
Then perhaps you are not as partial as you as you say you are. Some very good points are discussed, in a civilised fashion; as opposed to the slanderous curse-hurling follow-the-admin approach posed on PvX.MinionSplinter Weapon.jpgExcluded 02:38, April 26, 2010 (UTC)
Whatever you say, chief. But from an outsider perspective, who couldn't give less of a rat's ass either way, it looks like it's follow-the-leader on both sides.... Karate KJ for sig.png Jesus 02:58, 26 April 2010

Removal of mini skillbars on Physway page.

Hi Athrun, just a query as to why they have been removed? They do make the page look neater overall and I think some people would prefer to have them there. Roarer 22:22, April 19, 2010 (UTC)

I would also like to point out that I put the bars there because not all the links provide optimal builds. In addition, the mini-bars help give a visual of what the team should look like.--Arrogant Bastard 23:57, April 19, 2010 (UTC)
And, because I like them. ــѕт.мıкε 23:31, April 19, 2010 (UTC)
the mini skill bars are distracting and unnecessary. Their visual value is only in the overview. Listing all the pve melee builds is rhetorical with the article being a meleeway anyways (There is even a link to all general builds), ignoring the fact that they were all mini skill bars. There shouldn't be mini skill bars in the variants either--Relyk talk 01:43, April 20, 2010 (UTC)
The build was originally posted with melee builds. Constantly deleted by people so I changed to mini-bars which are also inappropriate now it seems. The variants were changed by someone else who said that it supposed to be that way. So I guess its cool to have a physicalway build that isn't allowed to post any melee builds. Makes sense.--Arrogant Bastard 02:31, April 20, 2010 (UTC)
You're arguing preference. What it comes down to is either accommodating the majority or compromising (collapsible templates, mebbe?). ــѕт.мıкε 11:07, April 20, 2010 (UTC)
The problem is that ANY build will work. Variants should only list a few....or none at all.---XTREME 11:44, April 20, 2010 (UTC)
no collapsible ones, they're look god awful. ~ PheNaxKian talk 11:45, April 20, 2010 (UTC)
This isn't about a page looking pretty, it's about what is fundamentally required by a team. We've all established the build requires 4 strong phy damage builds but after that i dont think anyone can agree. Ideally, had i written this article, I would link to all working general pve builds catagory and say use any of the melee ones (because they're actually all pretty reasonable), making a number of build specific points. By build specific i'm referring to things like the notes about Frenzy and AoHM (things that are only relevant to physway). If you don't like a skill that's in the original articles, then sort them out in the original articles (I'm not sure why chilling victory is in the derv build either...).
Talking about "optimal" builds in PvE is dangerous ground. The truth is that many things work and many of them work effectively - and then sometimes certain people are better at playing certain things. For example, the mini templates on the page listed Protective Strike where the pvxbuild has Power Attack. Now, considering they both do the same damage, have the same energy cost and recharge, when playing with pugs i'd say the unconditional Power Attack is better (if you think otherwise, dont tell me here, give a compelling argument why it should be changed on the original build). For me, the melee builds posted have significantly more energy management than I'd personally ever need. Also ebsoh is nowhere in sight - a skill which I would call optimal when you're running 4 melees. I could go on, but this is just so much easier solved by leaving the mini skill templates out and setting down some rules in line with the build (ie, dont bring aohm, frenzy is allowed, need several copies of sy, etc). - AthrunFeya Lau bfly.gif - 12:20, April 20, 2010 (UTC)
Protector's strike is better because of the activation time.
So instead of letting us post decent builds, we have to go and fix all the general pve builds? That sounds pretty unreasonable.--Arrogant Bastard 14:36, April 20, 2010 (UTC)
power attack vs prot strike, guaranteed +damage vs 1/2 activation and damage ONLY if they are moving, and with the gdw's + earthbind, urf shakurs ect everything should be still or sat on its arse..(sorry to be abusing your page Lau :D)>>Jayson<<< 15:15, April 20, 2010 (UTC)
@Arrogant she never said that she is talking about the layout. Also if you have a similar build that works better....then yes fix the current build and don't post a dupe build.---XTREME 16:46, April 20, 2010 (UTC)

Hmm. Forgive me if i've read this wrong, but are you saying that we can't have mini skill templates because you say that other builds are better than those mini templates? I can't say I've seen many other teambuilds with links rather than templates. (feel free to direct me; I don't use PvX alot). My question is why our page? Why is it you refuse to let us have mini templates? I know you're probably sick of the sight of us by now, but by doing this I feel you're only aggrivating the situation.Roarer 16:51, April 20, 2010 (UTC)

I think the point is to provide universality. You guys have said that this build is for PUGs, and I'm pretty sure that most PUG physicals aren't going to be ok with running those exact builds.
PvX is intended for the majority of the player base. The majority of the player base doesn't PUG, so allowing for some universality is a nicety that the build can afford to allow.
As for the personal attacks, they have gone a bit too far at this point. Athrun has been patient with this build and the gaggle of new users who are trying to bandwagon it, but it's time the personal assaults against her stopped. Consider this both a warning and advice. Karate KJ for sig.png Jesus 16:57, 20 April 2010
Personal attacks aren't intended on my part, but I'm finding it hard to understand the reasoning as to why we cannot put the mini templates in. It all seems rather petty to me, Wouldn't it make more sense to say "these are the 'preffered' builds due to X and Y" However, these builds will also work: "Insert links here". Surely theres nothing wrong with that?Roarer 17:04, April 20, 2010 (UTC)
Well, you have to remember how builds are perceived. By placing "preferred" mini skill bars in the build, an outsider may look at that and think it is their only option they have. When you author anything, including builds, you have to assume the person reading it is a complete idiot. I know that sounds presumptive, but it is one of the basics of any form of authorship. Karate KJ for sig.png Jesus 17:09, 20 April 2010
I see. In which case it seems my only option is to add our 'prefered' skills into variants into those linked builds in the hope that more people will take the skills which we feel are 'optimal'.Roarer 17:12, April 20, 2010 (UTC)
That sounds fine to me. But trust me, leaving them off the mini bars is for the best. They will be perceived as more universal and more PUG friendly, which I hear was the original intention anyway. Oh, and please remember to indent your comments with :'s. Just check the history to see how I did it. Karate KJ for sig.png Jesus 17:15, 20 April 2010
Sure thing, might I also add that I've seen personal attacks aimed at people who are from 'our side' too, I also feel that they are much worse and hope they're being looked at.Roarer 17:20, April 20, 2010 (UTC)
I'm saying one persons/groups idea of optimum may not necessarily be optimum (in fact, an absolute optimum build probably doesn't exist). As I explained above, I think even the list should be removed to bring it in line with our other builds (take Archive:Team - Physical Hero Team for example, the physical build is completely optional with a few team-build specific rules laid out in notes about what you should/shouldnt take). There's absolutely no reason why this shouldn't be the case in physway, it isn't a build with really specific requirements or usage since it's meant for pugs in random places (unlike a speed clear). - AthrunFeya Lau bfly.gif - 18:32, April 20, 2010 (UTC)

There's like 20-30 possibilities for builds you can run there. You can't load mini-skillbars as templates anyways. It also looks 100x nicer without them, and concise pages are cool. --Chaos? -- 18:54, April 20, 2010 (UTC)


I then request to at least be able to list the links to the optimal melees builds already on pvx (e.g. 100b, ES, WotA, Scythe). It is far more helpful to have a few hand-picked builds then to say "here pick from this long list of builds, half of which aren't able to fill the necessary role, but sort it out yourself".

The point of the build is to allow for flexibility, but until there's a list of all the good melee builds in 1 spot, this change needs to occur.--Arrogant Bastard 23:39, April 22, 2010 (UTC)

the page currently linked to is all "great general PvE" builds. That means any build the community decided is "great" that tagged for general PvE, is on there, and they're sorted by Profession. They're welcome to chose what they like, as you said, the point of the build is flexability, we could go more flexiable but then you're onto substandard builds. ~ PheNaxKian talk 23:46, April 22, 2010 (UTC)
But half those builds don't meet the criteria of being melee or even physical. It's not very helpful to make the reader sift through a ton of builds, when I could simply give 4-5 suggestions. I don't see how this request is unreasonable in anyway when it is in the interest of this site's visitors.--Arrogant Bastard 01:41, April 23, 2010 (UTC)

Poor Lau

Ebul trollz be spammzor her talk paeg. >: --Iggy 's other account 19:41, April 20, 2010 (UTC)

Lau you did a good job on this PUG build. I thought maybe you wanted to hear something positive for a change. It takes a strong person to fix up a build they don't care too much about. ;)---XTREME 11:18, April 21, 2010 (UTC)

semi-away

got 2 years worth of exams, reports and presentations to be doing over the next two months.. - AthrunFeya Lau bfly.gif - 22:35, April 21, 2010 (UTC)

Do it in the last two weeks, heck why am I saying it that's what everyone does really. --Frosty Frostcharge.jpg 23:04, April 21, 2010 (UTC)

worst kirchoff problem of all time

circuit_diagram.png

you found the diagram for a perpetual motion machine---XTREME 10:09, April 22, 2010 (UTC)

Americans

Down to 37min doa :> Life Guardian 05:01, April 23, 2010 (UTC)

oh, wow. if americans can do 37, germans must be on about 15... - AthrunFeya Lau bfly.gif - 05:02, April 23, 2010 (UTC)
Germans have only posted screens of 37, but i believe theyre on 34 with chest skips. Life Guardian 05:04, April 23, 2010 (UTC)
Nice time Life. The only frenchies I know did 40min (permas duo). They'll try a full cons run this we I think. Hair Fetish Man 09:18, April 23, 2010 (UTC)
Pom says they have a 30, so we have quite a long way to go :< Life Guardian 16:37, April 23, 2010 (UTC)
knowing pom he probably played x2 chars simultaneously for it too. - AthrunFeya Lau bfly.gif - 16:46, April 23, 2010 (UTC)
"knowing porn..." .. ... .. Wait, fuck, I probably read it wrong. --Chaos? -- 18:31, April 23, 2010 (UTC)

@mind blast vote. aren't most people that come here for pve ele builds going to just be noobs that want to grab a bar, jump into any pve group and press 123? comparing every single build on the site to hard mode play isn't really useful imo. Gringo 18:45, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

That's like saying "Comparing every GvG build to its ability to play above 1000 rating isn't really useful," which is retarded. ··· Danny So Cute 20:32, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
Sorted it out on msn. he didnt know HM foes have like 412098u428935energy, thus making mind blast kinda useless. - AthrunFeya Lau bfly.gif - 20:33, April 24, 2010 (UTC)
e* -- Armond {{Bacon}} 01:44, April 25, 2010 (UTC)
not in my notation. — Maf so rational. 05:22, April 25, 2010 (UTC)

Hi

I'd like lern2deep, and you seem like you might have a bit of experience in the area. My monk and necro can run any of the spiteful spike builds (except maybe the bip; I don't have finish him or shadow sanctuary yet, and his bip set is 215 HP, which I'm guessing is acceptable but, y'know, I've never tried it.), and while I could probably gear up my warrior to tank (or my paragon to paragon), I'm not willing to do so, on the grounds that I hate tanking in GW and that's not a position you give a beginner when people are used to 15 minute runs anyway. My monk's titles are pretty :D, but my necro's titles are pretty D:. Can we work something out? I'm willing to provide a conset as an entry fee, if needed. -- Armond {{Bacon}} 08:38, April 25, 2010 (UTC)

You can go as necro and literally not do anything the entire time, and you won't have impacted the run negatively at all. You only need 1 SS, and they bring 4 :> Life Guardian 08:42, April 25, 2010 (UTC)
yeah, we take people who've never run with us before on either monk or ss as poro+tank requires a bit more experience. Because I'm not really in a guild, Deep just happens when there's the right people to spam on friends-list (tends to be somewhere between 7pm-1am euro times, if at all). One thing tho, I'm not super-active in game atm due to uni work (and i shouldnt be here really but! pvx is distracting as hell), so might be useful to contact someone like Andy if you want to get it done sooner. - AthrunFeya Lau bfly.gif - 09:05, April 25, 2010 (UTC)
Yeah, I should really be spending more time on things like homework, myself. Well, nothing urgent, really, but if I see you on I'll bug you. -- Armond {{Bacon}} 16:02, April 26, 2010 (UTC)

A lesson here somewhere

If you liked "Frozen Fox" then you'll love this.

EnjoyMinionSplinter Weapon.jpgExcluded 17:59, April 25, 2010 (UTC)

Oh shit...--DigitalDigitalfear Sig.jpgFear 20:50, April 25, 2010 (UTC)
Congrats on finding one of the oldest videos on the internet. ··· Danny So Cute 21:13, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
Dig deeper; you're not looking hard enough. MinionSplinter Weapon.jpgExcluded 00:44, April 26, 2010 (UTC)

hey guys, i found a couple really amazing sites while surfin the web the other day. tell me what you think! — Maf so rational. 04:06, April 26, 2010 (UTC)

god you must be bored. i did watch them both :<--Relyk talk 06:33, April 26, 2010 (UTC)

Yes, did play the build.

Serious honest rating is serious. Cuilan 18:03, April 29, 2010 (UTC)

did you forget to press skill buttons? (also its going to be buffed more in a week) - AthrunFeya Lau bfly.gif - 19:27, April 29, 2010 (UTC)
Nope, just the opposite. And can't rate a build on a preview. A not very detailed one at that. I'd gladly change my rating if the bar is changed from the update or if the build is improved. Cuilan 19:45, April 29, 2010 (UTC)
i'm not bothered about a super-high vote but 0.2 really doesn't reflect how well this build works (and it is also putting it -just- in to trash catagory which is annoying since it means it will be deleted and then have to be remade in a few weeks). - AthrunFeya Lau bfly.gif - 19:57, April 29, 2010 (UTC)

600/smite

does 600/smite builds still work? Novii 19:38, April 29, 2010 (UTC)

not really. how the hell did that one escape the net. - AthrunFeya Lau bfly.gif - 19:58, April 29, 2010 (UTC)
there are still many others in "great" category Novii 08:15, April 30, 2010 (UTC)
everythings alright in hero/general/sc/running builds. Just farming is a huge mess ive never got around to sorting out. - AthrunFeya Lau bfly.gif - 08:17, April 30, 2010 (UTC)
Delete them all and start from scratch.MinionSplinter Weapon.jpgExcluded 18:13, April 30, 2010 (UTC)
i wish. we're far from active enough for that to actually happen (if you scan through all testing/trial builds youll see there's already a lot that needs shifting). - AthrunFeya Lau bfly.gif - 18:14, April 30, 2010 (UTC)

I made a list of all 600/smite builds that need archiving.. Few of them need some clean up (they are in testing for some reason). But I guess I will do this myself tomorrow if anyone else don't want to.. Novii 22:38, April 30, 2010 (UTC)

Mesmer madness

Anet accidentaly changed discriptions prematurely with yesterday's update: check this [1] Tyrael.png--(Talk) 15:16, April 30, 2010 (UTC)

i'm ever so slightly tempted to dust off my mesmer and actually play for a while once this updates released. - AthrunFeya Lau bfly.gif - 18:01, April 30, 2010 (UTC)
wow migraine will wreck 8v8 pvp. and keystone signet mesmers with symbolic celerity and 5 signets will wreak havoc. Gringo 18:42, April 30, 2010 (UTC)
or is it pve only? Gringo 18:48, April 30, 2010 (UTC)
PvE Only. Andy 18:51, April 30, 2010 (UTC)
It's like the other update, if changes are both PvP and PvE unless otherwise stated(remember Forceful Blow olol) Tyrael.png--(Talk) 20:02, April 30, 2010 (UTC)
Supposedly, changes are PvE unless otherwise noted this time around. ··· Danny So Cute 20:48, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

i can tell

you've been busy with monk builds for awhile.--Bluetapeboy 21:58, April 30, 2010 (UTC)

wat - AthrunFeya Lau bfly.gif - 22:09, April 30, 2010 (UTC)
fixed typo. also, u needa archive.--Bluetapeboy 22:14, April 30, 2010 (UTC)
wat. go rate on Archive:Mo/any Generic Prot so i can archive more shit. - AthrunFeya Lau bfly.gif - 22:15, April 30, 2010 (UTC)
I disagree with your vote, Lau. If you self-chain Aegis, you pretty much don't need to do anything else ever. ··· Danny So Cute 22:33, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
i dont see where your getting that you can self-chain aegis, my dear boy...--Bluetapeboy 23:08, April 30, 2010 (UTC)
There's no Assassin's Promise listed? This is fucking blasphemy. ··· Danny So Cute 23:18, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
APboon prot stands on the generic prots shoulders and shits on its head. Id guess ap isnt listed cos it doesnt want to dirty its name been put in the same bracket as the lesser flavour of monk pve prot bars. or.... its just better, and would get a worse rating than it deserves been merged. >>Jayson<<< 02:40, May 1, 2010 (UTC)