I've noticed that sometimes you'll have comments in first person in the build pages you submit, which goes against our formatting guidelines as no one person owns a given build article. Once submitted to the build space, it is a community page so all first person PoV comments such as your reasoning for picking certain skills or accounts of how you used the build should go on the talk page instead. Just a heads up so you're not wondering why I keep moving them. Toraen (talk) 11:11, 6 April 2018 (UTC)
- I got it, thanks--Saxazaxx (talk) 00:27, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
Profanity edits[]
Thanks a lot for mentioning those issues and taking care of some of them. Those small changes increase the article quality largely. --Krschkr (talk) 16:58, 10 May 2018 (UTC)
- Yeah, I have only made 1 so far.-- Saxazaxx - IGN: Saxazax I (capital i) or Saxazax I I - (talk) 17:29, 10 May 2018 (UTC)
Deep Bars[]
I like the iterations you’re going through here, but I really think there are optimizations to be made with the bars you have. The ST bar for example is spread super thin across four attribute lines. Even across three this bar sees a decrease in effectiveness. I can’t imagine the eles are more effective than mesmers, and I agree with your note that the para needs to go. I would also heavily advise against turning yourself into a kd bot. Slotting something like gale (or meteor if you’re keeping the eles) on a caster and ymlad on your own bar should be more than enough for the aspects while retaining the power of a player bar. LifeGuardian (talk) 02:28, 16 August 2018 (UTC)
- Thank you for your comments. "The ST bar for example is spread super thin across four attribute lines." I'm cool with that criticism; I put EoE on there as well as Splinter simply to utilize the effects of Spawning Power well--weapon spell duration + and spirit hp& armor +. If I was to take out the para for something else I could swap around EoE & Splinter Weapon. A note about theory/practice, you said that "being spread across 3 or 4 lines decreases a bar's effectiveness." In theory, yes, that is true, however, there is a note on the GWW under damage calculations for melee which says, increasing attribute points in a skill tree provides "excellent returns" up to rank 12, with the increase from 12 to 13 being only half as effective as the increase from 11 to 12. For example, take Pain of Disenchantment: r11: 2 enchants removed, 76 damage. r12: 3 enchantments removed, 82 damage (+6 damage). r13: 3 enchantments removed, 88 dmg (+6 damage again). r14: 3 enchantments removed, 94 damage (+6 damage as well). r15: 3 enchantments removed, 100 damage (+6 dmg). r16: 106, r17: 112, r18, 118. So with PoD that idea is not true--the damage increases steadily by 6 points each rank. However, talking dollars and cents here, if you take a look at the new meta Mesmers for the BiP melee and caster support hero comps, you see Dom spells on Illu Mesmers and Illu spells on Dom Mesmers. And I'm assuming that works because you could keep the maximum effectiveness from Dom for X number of skills at 8+1+3, have your 12+1 in Fast Casting, and then have extra damage from Illusion spells. I'm simply saying that the damage might be less if you just stuck to Dom.
- Take Esurge. r12: 72 dmg. r13: 81 (+9). r14: 81 (+0), r15: 90 dmg (+9). r16: 99 dmg (+9). r17: 99 (+0). Of course, the "0 skips" are due to the damage's contingency upon the energy lost. However, if you really were focused on doing damage, you might do more damage with 12 in Dom (8+1+3), 12 in Illu (11+1), and 12 in Fast Casting (11+1), bringing, for example, Esurge, Mistrust, Unnatural Signet, Wandering Eye, and Clumsiness, for starters. Taking, say, Cry of Frustration over Clumsiness or Wandering Eye will probably be less damage overall.
- I think that damage has been delegated to Mesmers because they were clasically used in HM, like in DoA, because their damage is armor-ignoring, and Esurge has a quick recharge. However, point-for-point, 2 Searing Flames Eles spamming Searing Flames will outdamage an Esurge Mes with an Ineptitude Mes any day. On paper, Esurge, at 12ish Fast Casting, recharges after about 7.5 seconds. At r17 Dom (if we're using a grail here), that's 99 nearby, armor-ignoring, AoE damage every 7.5 seconds. Compared with Searing Flames, which at r17 does 112 nearby, armor-respecting, AoE damage every 2 seconds, Esurge cannot even compete. Both have different conditions, (enough energy or burning requirement), both different applications. But the idea that armor-respecting damage must never be brought in HM is not correct. Moreover--and this is a somewhat more specific argument than the general idea I'm talking about here--Searing Flames' damage can be essentially considered armor-ignoring in conjunction with any source of Cracked Armor, which can be delegated to 1 skill, Weaken armor.
- At the end of the day, testing is the only thing that proves any theory. I have found that Searing Flames does excellent damage in HM Deep with a conset, and I believe that if I can get the tactics and dexterity down, as well as a few composition tweaks, I can beat Barath's record, which has 3 Mesmers in his midline. In addition to beating his record, I'm trying to show PvX that Mesmers should not be the largest source of damage in general team compositions; they were designed to provide pressure, and that is what they are best at, ceteris paribus (all things being equal).
- In reference to making myself a KD bot, I was constrained by IAU-Whirlwind-SY!, so I couldn't put YMLAD in there. I have put Bane Signets on heroes before, and that worked pretty well. I was also thinking of charging Whirlwind with Cyclone axe; that might be better than Hammer Bash. Talking comps, I might not even need SY! and I can take Ymlad. Or Balanced Stance instead of IAU. Etc.
- I think in the end, it all comes down to testing your theory, reviewing the videos to see how well your heroes perform, and then evaluating how the composition works as a whole, and how you can balance damage, pressure, protection, and healing, in the skill trees into which you are invested.--Saxazaxx (talk) 22:13, 16 August 2018 (UTC)
- Short comment on mixing illusion magic and domination magic: I didn't test it thoroughly yet, but so far pure domination energy surge mesmers (with some inspiration magic) have proven superior to those with illusion magic mixed in. Current testing area: A Little Help From Above HM. Results may vary depending on player styles, concrete skill choices and areas, so I'm at least going to test and compare it in some more areas before I'll draw a conclusion. I'd already advise against assuming that attribute mixing is generally superior for mesmers, though. --Krschkr (talk) 22:43, 16 August 2018 (UTC)
- I don't really see how beating Barath's record will prove anything tbh, if anything it proves that there are better tactics/that your RNG was better. I went out and tested your theory, and I mean actually testing: watching how much damage they deal. I went into City of Torc'qua NM, which is a pretty good place to test hero builds in my opinion. I had 2 ESurge/illusion hybrids and 2 SF eles (because 2 SF really improves it's performance compared to 1). Results were as expected: SF damage does not even come close to mesmer damage. Mesmers did 70% more damage than the SF heroes. If you want speed then swap out the ele and barage ranger for 2 more mesmers. I think playing 100b is definitely the right choice (something Barath did not do, Im pretty sure he didnt really think things through, which just goes to show that your testing is a bit flawed). ZStepmother (talk) 10:54, 27 August 2018 (UTC)
- Thank you for your comments. Was it because the Eles were getting rupted?--Saxazaxx (talk) 17:44, 27 August 2018 (UTC)
- That's a good question. I don't really think that's the case, but I didn't really pay attention to rupts. I think the groups either have 1 or 0 Kayas (the mesmers), so I don't think there were too many interupts. I think a big point is that they don't spam SF as often as you'd like, and armor still mitigates a lot of damage they deal (and I did have a necro with Weaken Armor). Their energy was perfectly fine tho, something I did not expect (especially with those QZs in city). If you want I can make a video of it so you can draw your own conclussions on why they don't work as well as you'd like. I'm even pretty sure that an Air ele with Invoke / Thunderclap deals more damage than SF heroes, purely because of their Armor Pen. ZStepmother (talk) 20:04, 27 August 2018 (UTC)
- They don't spam it on recharge. Gonna try Star Burst or fill the bars with shouts.--Saxazaxx (talk) 01:33, 28 August 2018 (UTC)
- That's a good question. I don't really think that's the case, but I didn't really pay attention to rupts. I think the groups either have 1 or 0 Kayas (the mesmers), so I don't think there were too many interupts. I think a big point is that they don't spam SF as often as you'd like, and armor still mitigates a lot of damage they deal (and I did have a necro with Weaken Armor). Their energy was perfectly fine tho, something I did not expect (especially with those QZs in city). If you want I can make a video of it so you can draw your own conclussions on why they don't work as well as you'd like. I'm even pretty sure that an Air ele with Invoke / Thunderclap deals more damage than SF heroes, purely because of their Armor Pen. ZStepmother (talk) 20:04, 27 August 2018 (UTC)
- Thank you for your comments. Was it because the Eles were getting rupted?--Saxazaxx (talk) 17:44, 27 August 2018 (UTC)
- I don't really see how beating Barath's record will prove anything tbh, if anything it proves that there are better tactics/that your RNG was better. I went out and tested your theory, and I mean actually testing: watching how much damage they deal. I went into City of Torc'qua NM, which is a pretty good place to test hero builds in my opinion. I had 2 ESurge/illusion hybrids and 2 SF eles (because 2 SF really improves it's performance compared to 1). Results were as expected: SF damage does not even come close to mesmer damage. Mesmers did 70% more damage than the SF heroes. If you want speed then swap out the ele and barage ranger for 2 more mesmers. I think playing 100b is definitely the right choice (something Barath did not do, Im pretty sure he didnt really think things through, which just goes to show that your testing is a bit flawed). ZStepmother (talk) 10:54, 27 August 2018 (UTC)
- Short comment on mixing illusion magic and domination magic: I didn't test it thoroughly yet, but so far pure domination energy surge mesmers (with some inspiration magic) have proven superior to those with illusion magic mixed in. Current testing area: A Little Help From Above HM. Results may vary depending on player styles, concrete skill choices and areas, so I'm at least going to test and compare it in some more areas before I'll draw a conclusion. I'd already advise against assuming that attribute mixing is generally superior for mesmers, though. --Krschkr (talk) 22:43, 16 August 2018 (UTC)
Archiving builds[]
Please don't archive builds that are in testing. Archive is reserved for builds that passed vetting or were otherwise extremely notable. -Toraen (talk) 17:46, 19 August 2018 (UTC)
- The move was my bad, though. I thought this was one of Saxazaxx's own submissions, so the note that it's inferior to a standard build sounded like abandoning it. --Krschkr (talk) 21:43, 19 August 2018 (UTC)
- It's probably best that if the build can't compete with even a barrage ranger, then it should be reflected in votes on the build. PvX:WELL is a quicker way to have an inferior build deleted, but I don't usually nominate builds for it nowadays since I was the only active admin for a while (and we had an informal agreement that an admin wouldn't delete builds they added well tags to themselves, for obvious reasons). I also tend to err on the side of letting votes decide anyway except in really blatantly inferior builds. -Toraen (talk) 05:26, 20 August 2018 (UTC)
- There isn't much voting going on though. Some builds are stuck in the testing phase for years now. --Krschkr (talk) 12:58, 20 August 2018 (UTC)
- To be fair, that's really not a huge problem. Builds in testing aren't in the Great/Good/Meta categories that we are suggesting people run. If you do feel that something is really deserving of a WELL tag, go ahead and apply one and I'll review it when I get time to do so. I do see that you applied a WELL to Build:Rt/any Channeling SoS and I missed that, so I'll have to look at some point soon anyway. -Toraen (talk) 00:05, 21 August 2018 (UTC)
- My bad, I don't know much about how things are run around here. I won't apply any more archive tags.--Saxazaxx (talk) 02:24, 24 August 2018 (UTC)
- To be fair, that's really not a huge problem. Builds in testing aren't in the Great/Good/Meta categories that we are suggesting people run. If you do feel that something is really deserving of a WELL tag, go ahead and apply one and I'll review it when I get time to do so. I do see that you applied a WELL to Build:Rt/any Channeling SoS and I missed that, so I'll have to look at some point soon anyway. -Toraen (talk) 00:05, 21 August 2018 (UTC)
- There isn't much voting going on though. Some builds are stuck in the testing phase for years now. --Krschkr (talk) 12:58, 20 August 2018 (UTC)
- It's probably best that if the build can't compete with even a barrage ranger, then it should be reflected in votes on the build. PvX:WELL is a quicker way to have an inferior build deleted, but I don't usually nominate builds for it nowadays since I was the only active admin for a while (and we had an informal agreement that an admin wouldn't delete builds they added well tags to themselves, for obvious reasons). I also tend to err on the side of letting votes decide anyway except in really blatantly inferior builds. -Toraen (talk) 05:26, 20 August 2018 (UTC)
User:Saxazaxxx[]
Is this also your account? -Toraen (talk) 09:55, 10 December 2018 (UTC)
- I'm not sure why that one exists... I definitely did make it at some point for some reason... You can delete it.--Saxazaxx (talk) 04:04, 11 December 2018 (UTC)
- Can't delete accounts, but I can permaban it and remove the userpages. I couldn't find any times it voted using Special:RecentRatings, but if you can still log into it, can you do so and then check Special:UserRatings to remove any of its votes? -Toraen (talk) 07:10, 11 December 2018 (UTC)